Testing the freelance waters with Juliana Casale

Mohammed: How are you feeling?

Juliana: Feeling pretty good. I mean, given the state of the world, okay today.

Mohammed: Well, let’s get started then. What do you do as a freelancer?

Juliana: So I help B2B and SaaS companies with marketing projects that can range from website updates for copy, email sequences, ad campaigns, case studies, so really anything to do with the written word where you’re trying to either educate an audience or get them to take an action.

Mohammed: And how did you get started in that?

Juliana: It was not on purpose, admittedly. So I had a marketing job that was in-house in April and, unfortunately, I lost it along with a lot of other people and I started looking for more in-house roles just because that’s what I’ve known my entire career as a marketer that’s been in the space for about 10 years.

But I found that as I was interviewing for full-time roles, that companies were very hesitant to hire during the pandemic and people were pretty wishy-washy on getting back to me and I was at a senior marketing level which makes it even harder to get hired because [I’m] kind of expensive.

So, while I was looking for full-time roles, I started freelancing on the side and then as I kept having these conversations and interviews with companies, I kept saying “I’m not sure this is the right fit for me,” you know, they’re interviewing me but I’m also evaluating them.

I decided that freelancing full time was actually going to give me my independence and give me space to really be picky if I did land another full-time role and so I kind of scaled back my interviewing process and started really putting myself into finding freelance projects and consulting instead.

Mohammed: Right. And how’s it going? How are things?

Juliana: It’s really interesting. I mean, I incorporated myself in May and I realized that, obviously, I was going to have to market myself which is weird because, as a marketer, I’m just so used to marketing brands or companies but explaining what you do and what you’re good at is apparently really hard, at least I found it really challenging. I think I’m not the only one that felt this too.

And so trying to pick a niche is something a lot of people tell you to do as a freelancer but I have a very broad skill set so that was kind of a struggle. Trying to find work in the summer, because I really started trying to find gigs for freelance work in June, that was tough.

People were on vacation or we’re still in the middle of this global crisis so that was a little tough to nail people down and having started freelancing for the first time, I wasn’t sure what to expect, “what was normal” or not. So just kind of figuring out what the baseline of what if what I was experiencing was normal was tough.

And then it’s a slow drag to try to get clients because you’re coming at them from out of nowhere and you’re saying you’re an expert in something and they have to trust you with what you’re saying and they trust you with their business as well. And so I think the first month or two was really slow. It was kind of a grind.

I was trying to pursue a lot of things that I saw on Slack groups or Facebook groups or on LinkedIn and I’d say half the time, someone would say, “Great, send me samples” or “Give me a quote,” and then half the time after that, I’d get on the phone for a discovery call and then half the time after that, I’d issue a contract, and then half the time after that they would actually agree to sign it and so it seems like a lot of work for not a lot of results in the beginning.

And so, yeah, it was tough to kind of maintain enthusiasm and confidence that I could make this work for myself but I did end up getting some clients that were repeat customers. I did end up getting some projects that were one-offs but their feedback was great or the experience was great where I have something to add to my portfolio so I will say it has gotten better over the past couple [of] months.

I do have more steady work. There’s less time to fill my day where I’m just not questioning if I’m doing what I’m supposed to be doing or not. So, I’d say it’s on the upswing now but I will say for anyone who’s considering doing this, it is tough.

It’s not like I just took one job, took another job, and then fully rolled into it. I did definitively say “I’m going to incorporate. I’m going to call myself something. I’m going to start pursuing leads that I find.”

Mohammed: You mentioned that you were looking for full-time gigs. Was this shift towards freelancing, was that accidental? Or was that intentional on your part or a bit of both?

Juliana: So it actually started with a tweet. I am fairly prolific on Twitter and I had been struggling with the in-house job search and I put it to Twitter. I said, “I know enough people that are freelancers that I know this is an option for me, should I pursue it?” And I got a resounding barrage of replies from everyone that they’re like, “Yeah, you should do it,” “Oh, my gosh, you’d be amazing,” “I want to work with you,” blah, blah, so I took that as a signal from the universe that I should pursue it. 

So I kind of let Twitter tell me what to do a little bit. I mean, what’s great is I do have a few freelancers in my network that have been doing what they do for years and so I actually, I think for the first couple of weeks when I was considering making the switch seriously, I asked them each for about a half-hour of their time and I asked them a bunch of questions.

How do I set myself up as a business? Do I need an accountant? What do I charge? What does a contract look like? How often am I gonna have to pursue people for money? That was the least palatable part of the job from what I’ve heard from people who’ve been doing this for a while.

And so I actually did a bunch of research before, saying, “All right, I’m going to put some money down on a website and I’m going to find an accountant and I’m going to figure out how to shape and define my services,” and so it was a conscious decision after thinking about it for a bit.

So it’s not like I just took one job, took another job, and then fully rolled into it. I did definitively say “I’m going to incorporate. I’m going to call myself something. I’m going to start pursuing leads that I find.”

Mohammed: And the person that said, “Hey, yeah, do it. I want to work with you,” did you end up working with them?

Juliana: I did not. I’ve actually kept it in my back pocket. He works at Salesforce and so I didn’t know what working for Salesforce as a freelancer might look like and I wasn’t sure if he was just saying it to be nice honestly.

I do so I do have some friends at different companies where I think I could come to them if I needed extra work and they would either try to find work for me or find other people who might need work but I did want to try to make it work for myself without asking for favours so that’s what I’ve been doing so far.

Mohammed: And so as you started going around talking to people that have been freelancing for some time, how did this idea of registering as a corporation come about and getting yourself structured?

Juliana: So, I had a friend who is a freelancer, she’s a graphic designer, and she just has been operating as a sole proprietor. She told me she wishes she had not set herself up as that she wishes she had incorporated because there’s a lot of tax breaks that are associated and there [are] certain benefits that you can get out of doing that if you think you’re going to make a certain amount of money.

I forgot what the amount was but at some point if you think you’re going to hit a threshold, it makes more sense to incorporate. It does cost money and there is some documentation involved but she said — I asked her if there were any regrets or anything she wishes she’d done differently when she launched and that was one of the things she mentioned.

Then one of the people who told me I should absolutely go into freelancing had an accountant that had helped him incorporate so I just took a referral from him and set myself up with the accountant and so, yeah, it was easier just to say, “Here, you know what you’re doing, here’s the money. You do this for me.” 

I’ve learned as an adult like I’m better off hiring professional movers or having some professional do the work for me than muddling through myself. I’m old enough now that I’ve got enough money that I know when it’s not worth my time. So that’s just one of those things like I do think with a business when you’re a freelancer, you do have to make certain investments and so I didn’t feel bad about asking for help.

Mohammed: So you mentioned that you started doing discovery calls, you started essentially having your clients go through this funnel. How did you even know what to do?

Juliana: So it goes back to talking to a bunch of people who’ve done this before. I didn’t want to make stupid mistakes and, obviously, you can’t avoid that. I knew I’d invent new mistakes for myself but my theme with talking to all these freelancers who had been around the block was if there’s anything I can learn from any pain points you’ve had or any hurdles you’ve had to overcome or any obstacles I want to do my best to avoid them and if I can learn from your expertise that’s really helpful. 

And so one of the people I talked to actually who’s been on your podcast before, Stefan Palios, and he said — he gave me a ton of useful information from always get it in writing. I mean, he’s a fountain of information. So, it was so much it was a firehose of you know, always get it in writing, here’s what my contracts look like you should have a process in place for onboarding a client where you ask them the same set of questions for the same project, be really aggressive with your rate, all the things that you’re supposed to do.

He was very defined and very adamant that you follow this step process. So, I knew from before I even met with a client for the first time that I should have an intake form to ask them questions or, if not, have a discovery call to ask [to] define what the project is and then that would naturally, as I had more information about the project, inform what my rate would be then I could estimate how much time it would take me and then, yeah, and then packaging my services.

He helped me — he asked me a bunch of questions that I hadn’t even thought about, about what do I want to do? What kind of clients am I trying to attract? What are my services or packages I can offer? How do I upsell people? So between talking to him and I think there [were] a handful of other people that have all been in the freelancing boat for a while, I kind of knew what the steps were.

It’s a lot different having to do it yourself obviously, but just knowing that there are certain things you should be doing and there’s like timing between them was really helpful.

Instead of having one boss, you have, I don’t know, sometimes three to five bosses at a time so you’re juggling a lot more of managing the communications

Mohammed: And so now that you’ve gone through this process, at least with a few clients from the sounds of it, what would you say are some of the misconceptions of working full time as a freelancer?

Juliana: I would say one is people think it’s less stressful than having a full-time job, which it’s different, right? You, instead of having one boss, you have, I don’t know, sometimes three to five bosses at a time so you’re juggling a lot more of managing the communications and, yeah, there are some days where it’s really slow and you think you’re failing at this and you don’t have that fallback of a steady paycheck or insurance or benefits and so that’s really nerve-racking.

I feel like time passes differently for me than for my clients and so if somebody takes two days to get back to me after I’ve issued a contract and I’m waiting for them to sign it, it feels to me like it’s been a week, you know? To them, they’re busy because they’ve got a full-time job and they probably meant to get back to me but something else came up, but it just feels like a lot longer and so you can get in your own head pretty easily. I’d say another thing is vacation.

I feel like people think you can just go on vacation whenever you want if you freelance but it’s kind of [the] opposite because you have to clear so much space for yourself and tell your clients well in advance if you plan to take time off because they’re also — they might send you an email asking you for something or a deadline might come up and so I think it’s tougher to actually take time off.

I’ve talked to a bunch of freelancers who just don’t go on vacation, which kind of alarms me as someone who’s a fan of work-life balance. So, I’m going to make sure I’m not that kind of freelancer but I get that it’s really hard, especially in the beginning when you’re trying to build up a client base that you don’t want to take the time off.

And, I mean, the truth is you’re not getting paid for that time off either because it’s time you’re not spending working so it’s kind of a double whammy there. So I’d say yes, there is flexibility in your schedule and the projects you take on but you also do have a lot of people that are expecting you to deliver things or communicate and your time is not necessarily your own all the time.

Mohammed: And aside from flexibility, what are some of the benefits of working full time?

Juliana: I know, I don’t mean to make this sound like it’s all doom and gloom, it really isn’t. Yeah, so I’d say flexibility in setting your rates, you know? You’re telling one client your rate but you can tell somebody else something else and as you get better at your job or you have a glowing list of people who would give a reference, you can increase your rates. So if you make a mistake and undersell yourself once, that doesn’t mean you’re stuck there forever, which is good.

I feel like it’s a lot harder sometimes to get a raise in a full-time position than it is to just give yourself a raise as a freelancer. And then another thing is the ability to turn down projects because I feel like when you’re in-house, you kind of have to do what your boss asks you for the most part because you want to be a team player or you want a promotion or something like that.

I’ve had a couple [of] people approach me with opportunities that just didn’t align with my experience at all and they were things I didn’t enjoy doing and I knew that and the ability to say, “I don’t specialize in this. I’m not a PR marketer,” or, “I’m not a demand gen marketer.” I think people assume marketers can do basically anything, but there [are] so many parts of the discipline that that’s just not true. And so they might not understand that and you can educate them.

But the point of having a conversation is to say “Is this a good fit on both sides?” And to be able to say, “No, that’s not my specialty. I can actually try to find you somebody else that specializes in that, but I really don’t think this is a good fit,” that’s great because I went into freelancing to be able to have some independence on things that I enjoy and so it’d be against the whole point if I’m doing things I don’t really want to do.

And then, yeah, being able to expand or change the scope of what you’re doing as well. If there are certain things that I’ve wanted to try I can be honest and say, “Listen, I’m not a podcast marketer but if I wanted to learn the mechanics and you want me to help you with something, I’m happy to take on the work, maybe at a cheaper rate, just to get the experience.” So you can always add things to what you offer as long as it’s something you either want to learn or you are good at it.

I just pitched myself and either had friends come out to me and ... there were several clients that were referred to me by friends because they knew that I had a broad set of marketing skills.

Mohammed: And what’s been your approach to picking projects and setting your pricing and even marketing yourself? How have you gone about all those things?

Juliana: So, in the beginning, listen to a lot of the people who said pick a niche and I think I went too far in narrowing the scope. So I actually — I had brainstormed what I was going to call myself and I had all these notes all around my house that I’d wake up or be in the shower and I’d write an idea down and I arrived at Quick Wins Department, which is the official name of my business online.

I was trying to think of what projects I could offer that are quick wins or like really impactful that I could get done in a couple [of] weeks that a client would be really happy with the results and because of the whole “pick a niche” that [has] kind of been drilled into my head by a bunch of freelancers, I decided the only thing I was going to advertise on my website was a website optimization package.

I’d worked at a website hosting and CRM company and then I also worked at a website conversion rate optimization company and so I knew the mechanics of what a good website design was and how you could optimize it for getting people to buy something or sign up for something and so I figured that’s what I was gonna do.

I was gonna put together an analysis package where I could look at someone’s website using a CRO tool and give them advice on how to update it to get more conversions. But, of course, that’s just so specific that not a lot of people that have talked to me that one service and so what ended up happening is I didn’t really use the website to sell my services.

I just pitched myself and either had friends come out to me and say, “I’ve got someone who needs help with their content marketing,” or, “I need someone who can mentor my marketing manager,” or, “I need someone who can help me with my email sequence,” so there were several clients that were referred to me by friends because they knew that I had a broad set of marketing skills.

And then I also went after my own gigs through either like Facebook groups or Slack groups and if someone said, “I need help with my website copy,” I could say, “Hey, I can do that,” and so it’d be more of a one to one, me telling them I’m available or they’d say they needed help and I raised my hand for it.

So I haven’t really marketed with my website the way that my website should be marketing me and, actually, I’m going to update it after this conversation because it’s just not doing what it should be doing and explaining what I do. But it was my first attempt at explaining myself.

There are sections of it that I’m happy with, like the About page is still going to be accurate. There’s a form for getting in touch so people can still ask me for help if they need to. Yeah. So, I think my first step was defining what I do, maybe not in the best way for the first pass at it but I think even just pulling off the Band-Aid of launching a website was important as a step and, yeah, and then it was trying to find work.

So, I did let people know that I was freelancing now. I updated my LinkedIn to say “Marketing Consultant.” I did keep an eye every day on about five different Slack groups that have job postings or vendor freelancer postings. And so, just being really diligent about checking in and following up every day when I did see something that aligned with what I wanted to work on so those were the first steps.

Mohammed: And how have things evolved since then?

Juliana: In the beginning, I had a couple [of] projects that were one-off where I was either helping with [the] cleanup of a blog that just had really old content that hadn’t been updated in a long time or there was a client that needed me for email sequences but that was all they needed. But I did, over time, find a couple of clients that are more long term so I actually have two retainer clients now.

So I think just finding that steady work has been a big change and it’s really made a difference for my peace of mind because there are some days where there’s not that much work to do in terms of deliverables but I do still get paid for the time because I’ve got that steady income that I can count on. 

I mean, I know in the back of my head that they could terminate it with 30 days’ notice so it’s not like a guaranteed amount of money but there is a little bit more assurance that I’ve got an ongoing relationship and so that’s just been really good.

And I know that you should be finding work before you need it so, [as] I said from the beginning, just because you find someone who needs help doesn’t mean they’re going to talk to you and even if you do issue a contract, that doesn’t mean anyone’s gonna sign it and even if they do sign a contract, they might not even give you the deposit you asked for.

So, if you feel like there’s going to be a lull in your work coming up, it’s actually better to start hustling maybe two weeks before that. So, I do know in the back of my head that if let’s say one of my retainer clients drops me, I will need to start looking for new gigs pretty soon even if there’s going to be some overlap between the old client and the new one. But I will say like having found a couple of clients that do want to have a long-term relationship is great.

Especially because you feel like you're not part of a team as much as you had been if you’ve been in-house and then you go freelance. So, having that more insight into the company, more insight into the customer or the product having a touchpoint, that’s maybe one person or two people that you talk to regularly, actually does feel a lot better if you feel lonely. So I would say that’s been a major improvement in the freelancing journey I’ve been on so far.

I think because I picked a service and a very specific service that it was a little too far down the hole of how to define what I do and I think given the range of things I can work on, it just limited what I could offer.

Mohammed: And I do want to go back a little bit and so you mentioned quite a few things that I want to explore a little bit more. You said that you went too niche. What about having a niche was too niche for you?

Juliana: I think when people say “pick a niche,” they mean “I work with early-stage startups,” or “I offer copywriting services to e-commerce,” or picking an industry or size of business. I think because I picked a service and a very specific service that it was a little too far down the hole of how to define what I do and I think given the range of things I can work on, it just limited what I could offer.

I think it’s harder to find someone who’s ready to have their website analyzed than it is to maybe find someone who needs content help or email help or ad help. So, I think I just narrowed my prospects too much or it would have been harder for me to find the right customer. You know, it’s good to be known for one thing so I don’t think that’s the problem. It’s just the one thing [that] is too specific. I mean, I know you can certainly offer that package to people but it could be part of another wider range of things. 

For example, I could say I could analyze your website but I could also analyze the emails you send from the collection form on your website and then I could also help you with any resources that you offer in those email sequences. So I could drill down and really offer a wide range of things that relate to that one thing, but I think just offering that one thing is maybe handicapping myself too much. 

Mohammed: I have some thoughts on this.

Juliana: I’d love to hear them.

Mohammed: Awesome. So I don’t know if you’re aware, but I have a nonprofit called Women and Color and [as] part of that, we offer a speaker bootcamp as well to help women, people of colour, and LGBTQA+ professionals kick start their speaking careers.

And so part of that is the idea of the common thread, which at least the thinking behind it is that if you look at Brené Brown, her common thread is vulnerability but she takes that larger concept and then turns it into leadership, turns it into becoming a better person, and comes out with multiple books and Netflix shows and whatnot, but the common theme across all of them is vulnerability, right?

Similar to Simon Sinek and since that is all about leadership, and so he comes up with the book, Leaders Eat Last, Starting with Why, all other kinds of stuff. So similar thing, when freelancers are thinking about [a] niche, they should think about what is that common theme and then, under that, how can you expand to other pieces.

So, for me, when I’m listening to you, my thinking is like, “Okay, I think your common theme is conversion copywriting,” and that larger aspect of like, “Hey, I’m a conversion copywriter,” it’s like, oh, conversion copywriter, okay, I see what you’re kind of doing, at least on the larger aspect of it and then from there, it’s like, “Yeah, I can do your website. I can do your email, I can do your blog,” whatever the case is, because the larger theme for you, at least me being the outsider here, seems to be conversion copywriting. Do I have that right?

Juliana: Yeah, I wouldn’t say it’s wrong.

Mohammed: Please tell me if I’m wrong. I’m interested here.

Juliana: So I think one of the reasons that I was excited to go into freelancing is I felt like every in-house role I had as a marketer forced me to get really tactical and data-focused and analytical and it kind of strangles the creative side of things when you’re only thinking about marketing qualified leads that you’re generating through your content. 

And so I think calling myself a conversion copywriter might put the focus on the outcome to revenue in an unpleasant way. Not that I don’t want to be held accountable for driving results, because I definitely do but I just — if that’s you want to create an experience, you want to educate people, you want them to feel a certain way about your brand.

There are all these intangibles that you create with writing that I just think would get a little strangled if the whole thing was, okay keep an eye on how many leads I drive from this sequence or — you know, I don’t want that to be the only thing that someone cares about when I deliver my work. And so I think I’d have to be careful about what the expectations were.

If Shopify comes along and has a really amazing customer marketing role, I would not say, “Oh, no, sorry, I’m a freelancer now, go away, Shopify.” But there — yeah, I think it would take a lot for me to give up the flexibility and kind of the learning journey I’m on.

Mohammed: At the beginning of our discussion, you mentioned that, for you, freelancing right now is a sort of transitional phase where you’re testing the waters and you’re essentially working with different clients to make sure you’re getting funds coming in and you’re growing yourself in terms of your skills and whatnot and, for you, you’re just waiting I guess for the right company to come along perhaps that you do want to work with full-time. Is that still very much the case?

Juliana: I’d say yeah. You know, if Shopify comes along and has a really amazing customer marketing role, I would not say, “Oh, no, sorry, I’m a freelancer now, go away, Shopify.” But there — yeah, I think it would take a lot for me to give up the flexibility and kind of the learning journey I’m on. I really do love trying things I’ve never done and this is a completely different challenge than I’ve ever had to face before.

I mean, there [are] a lot of moving pieces to running your own business and it’s not all doing the work, it’s a lot of back-end stuff that I’ve never had to figure out before so I’m not really great at it yet and so I would like to become really great at it and so I think, yes, if an amazing company and an opportunity comes along, I would certainly entertain it but I’m not actively looking for roles right now. And so, for the near term, at least the next three to six months, I am envisioning doing this and continuing on the path to figuring out how to make this work as my life.

Mohammed: So, in a way, you’re now viewing things in a binary way in that, “Okay, you’re either freelancing or you’re working full time.” For you, it’s more so, “Hey, here are some opportunities that I have as a result of freelancing and, in the meantime, I’m not saying I’m not going to look for full-time work or I won’t be open to working full time.” Especially if a company comes knocking on your door and wants to hire you.

For you, it’s more so, “Here’s what makes sense given the circumstances and freelancing at this point seems to be working and I’m learning and I’m going ahead with it. I’m not opposed to working full time.” But you’re essentially sort of transitioning back and forth given what makes sense to you. Would that be a fair evaluation? Fair understanding?

Juliana: Yeah, I’d say so. I mean, one of the things that really soothed me when I was talking to my freelancer friends is one person said that they will be on as a full-time freelancer for, let’s say, a year or two and then they’ll go in-house for however long and then go back to freelancing. So it’s not like you have to commit to one or the other and that’s what you’re doing for the rest of your life.

It’s very flexible and fluid and so once you have your company set up or you’ve got clients you can reach out to you can take a break, you can come back. It’s not like it’s going to dry up completely. And so, I’m going to try to make this work as my studying I’m going to try to build, study, and come out of it and then I’ll keep doing it until it’s not fun anymore, or, yeah, if a full-time role comes along that’s really juicy, I will talk about it, but, yeah, and the flexibility to go from one to the other is also really cool because you don’t have to sign in blood.

Mohammed: Juicy Full-time. Somebody should get that domain name.

Juliana: Juicy Full-time. Yeah, I don’t know. That could go wrong.

Mohammed: That’s a fair point. I did not think that through.

Juliana: Gotta think of the marketing ramifications.

If you can find a few freelancers that are more established that have more work than they can handle you can look like a hero to help them but also they’ve gotten all the stuff like contracts or trying to find a business out of the way.

Mohammed: Right, right. That SEO — that SEO result of that. All this said, I’d love to know what advice you have for other Canadian freelancers who are thinking of testing the waters, who are considering exploring the freelance opportunity. What would you like to share with them?

Juliana: I guess if you are in a situation where you’re in-house somewhere and you’ve got your full-time job but you are considering freelancing, I would say certainly make it easier on yourself. Because, as I said, if you [are] a full-time freelancer, you are creating a business, you are trying to chase after jobs, you are trying to market yourself.

That’s a lot of work to take on if you already have full-time work. So, there are freelance job platforms that you can join that kind of do the heavy lifting of finding the clients for you. So, Upwork, for example, is pretty popular. I’ve heard that mentioned a lot. I joined a platform called MarketerHire a few months ago and that’s also really great.

So if you’re a content marketer or ad performance marketer or they’ve got different categories. I think growth marketing is another one. They actually have brands come to the platform to find, do their hourly work or part-time work to 20 hours. They even have full-time gigs that might go to permanent. 

Finding a platform like that that does the work for you where you’re not trying to chase up your own business I think would be really helpful just to see if you take on a project or two, do you enjoy it? Do you find that it’s more stressful or less stressful than your full-time job? So you can just make a comparison there.

Another thing you can do to shortcut having to do the work is there are a lot of freelancers that have been doing it long enough that they get more requests for their time or for projects than they can handle, so there are some people looking for help with spillover work.

I’ve definitely seen this on different freelancing groups where someone says “I’ve got this client, they’ve asked for five blog posts this month, but I can’t deliver, can anyone take that on?” Or “I’ve got someone asking me for design work but I don’t offer it. Does any designer want to come [and] take that part of the project away for me?”

And so if you can find a few freelancers that are more established that have more work than they can handle you can look like a hero to help them but also they’ve gotten all the stuff like contracts or trying to find a business out of the way. So I’d say those are two easy ways to test the waters.

If you want to be a little more serious about it, you could create your own website and see if you get any bites on it. You can tell friends and family you’re open to side work. So, it depends on how much you want to ramp up trying it out but those are some good ways without fully committing that you can see whether you are cut out for this or not.

Mohammed: Awesome. Well, I’m very eager to listen back to this conversation. Juliana, I really appreciate this opportunity to learn from you. I’d love to know where people can find out more about you and your work online.

Juliana: My website is quickwinsdept.com. If I’ve gotten my act together, by the time this podcast airs, it will be more than just website analytics and conversions as the offering but I guess that’ll be a fun mystery for you to see whether I’ve put in the work or not.

Or if you want more of an updated list of what I’ve worked on in the past, you can find me on LinkedIn, so it’s Juliana Casale. I have quite an extensive history in marketing at different startups so you can see what different projects I’ve worked on there. And, yeah, as long as you say you came from the podcast, I won’t think you’re trying to sell me something.

Mohammed: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for this opportunity to learn from you. I really appreciate it.

Juliana: Yeah, thank you. I’ve got a lot of research to do on invoicing myself.