Becoming debt-free with Zandile Chiwanza

Mohammed: So, before we get started, let's start by understanding what it is that you do as a freelancer and perhaps even how you got started?

Zandile: I am a journalist. At the moment, I'm a full-time personal finance writer. I started being passionate about personal finance back in 2018. That's when I started freelance writing for a blog called Debt-Free Black Girl. From there, I've basically been writing about personal finance as a freelancer until about last year where I started writing full-time for a personal finance blog. But right now I still freelance, particularly writing about financial wellness.

Mohammed: And Debt-Free Black Girl, how did that come about?

Zandile: There's a funny story with Debt-Free Black Girl. I actually DMed the founder on Twitter. She was super vocal about personal finances and I had never seen anyone who looked like me talk about finance like that. With personal finance, the industry is pretty standard. It would be older white men or people who just didn't look like I [do], to be frank.

So I'd obviously take the advice, but I'd be like, ‘I can't relate to a lot of this. Like, most of this advice just doesn't apply to my lifestyle.’ It just seemed like I couldn't quite grasp what they were talking about. So when I saw Kristen Winchester, I was like, ‘I want to know her.’ I DMed her and I ended up writing for her and I still work for her to this day as one of my freelance projects. I'm [also] a community manager for a platform called Her Therapy Space. 

Mohammed: What exactly is the focus of the community and who's involved in that community?

Zandile: Her Therapy Space is actually a mental health practice that is based in Washington, DC. The idea is to help ambitious, young, multifaceted women of colour like me manage their mental health through major life transitions. In terms of the community, I help other women manage their mental health online. We have a community that is currently in test mode and will be launched later this year.

Mohammed: Awesome! So how did you go from writing for Debt-Free Black Girl to now being part of Her Therapy Space, which is more around mental health? [How do] the two [correlate with one another]?

Zandile: Something I'm really passionate about is spreading the message that mental health and money really go hand in hand. From personal experience, most of my financial poor decisions come from when I was doing the worst mentally. 

I had low self-esteem after graduating from university with no job prospects. I was working in contract and freelancing and not making very much money. [Ironically], that’s when I spent the most money. I was buying dresses. I had my hair done all the time. Spending, spending, spending. 

And that was because I was trying to, as they call it, do retail therapy to cover up for my life just not being where I wanted it to be. It wasn’t until I got a call from a collections agent that [I woke up]. I was like, ‘Okay, [I] need to get your life together.’ So that's where financial wellness really comes in because you have to take control of your finances. 

That's what wellness means: taking control of your life and your finances. So for me, that's why mental health and money go hand in hand. It's sort of a newer concept, but a lot of people are starting to understand that when it comes to personal finance, it's not always about financial literacy. Wellness plays a huge, huge role in that.

I feel the most financially healthy when I'm living within my means. [When I know] that my net worth is not tied to my self-worth [and] I'm not judging myself [for] past mistakes I've made on my financial journey; I'm meeting my goals.

Mohammed: I like that quite a lot. Let's get a better understanding of that means then. Having this mental health [angle] does tie into your finances because mental health can affect your financial decisions. So, what exactly is financial wellbeing? What does it mean to you?

Zandile: I really appreciate that you asked, “What does it mean to you?” Because I think in general, financial well-being is [described as] having control of your day-to-day finances. But for me, I feel the most financially healthy when I'm living within my means. [When I know] that my net worth is not tied to my self-worth [and] I'm not judging myself [for] past mistakes I've made on my financial journey; I'm meeting my goals. That's really what it means to me.

Mohammed: How did you develop this practice of financial wellness for yourself?

Zandile: Well, for me, knowing my “why” is at the root of everything. So, as you said, when you ask people to put a number on wealth, they can't really do that. For me, it's never about the numbers. For me, it's asking myself, ‘Why am I doing this in the first place? And what does it mean to me to be financially free?’

So, in terms of practice, I always keep my “why” at the centre. [One] of those reasons is [that] I want to be [the person] I needed when I was younger. I think a lot of personal finance is very black and white: “Do this; do that; save X percent.” Not everybody can do that.

And when I used to see that, I would [think], ‘I'm a failure because I can't save 20% of my income.’ And I think as a freelancer, too, sometimes your income can be up and down. [For example], I saw a tweet the other day that [read], “Being a freelancer [means] one day you feel rich, the next day you're poor.” So, it's not going to help if I'm coming to you and I'm [saying], “Save 20% of that income.” No. 

When it comes to developing my practice, another thing that really helped me [was] saying “no” more and creating those healthy boundaries. Because if you say, “yes, yes, yes” all the time, you're going to pour into other people and not be able to practice your own financial wellbeing. Because you have your own goals that you need to meet. And sometimes that means, you're saying, “No, [you’re not going to] have that extra mimosa at brunch.”

You have your own goals that you're trying to meet. It's different now, with COVID. That has brought a lot of perspective for me in terms of my financial goals. Whereas before I was very strict [with] myself because I wanted to meet my goals faster, now I'm like, “[I] have to realize that things happen.” It's not always in your control.

Mohammed: How has COVID affected your financial wellbeing or even just your overall well being?

Zandile: It's really given me that kick in the butt — excuse my language. Just before COVID, I actually wasn't saving money. I was so focused on paying off my debt [that] I wasn't saving. That was a terrible idea because there's something called “debt relapse” that happens.

It was happening to me a lot — I'd pay off my debt but something would come up and then I [would] go right back into that debt because I [had] to cover the emergency. So, when COVID happened, I was like, ‘Enough is enough. Being debt-free is not everything. Right now, I need to focus on saving money.’ So that's all I've been doing, really. Anything extra goes to my savings. I think as a freelancer — because you don't always have [anything] to fall back on — it’s good to have an emergency fund.

Mohammed: What's been your approach to building this emergency fund?

Zandile: I treat it like a bill (and that's with debt as well). That's the only way. Because you'll start to get ideas when you see the money, right? So for me, I just allocate every penny. That's the way that I do it. So, when I receive the money, I write it down. I look at it, take my time with it, [I don’t think], ‘This is an opportunity to spend.’ [Then], after bills, I put money towards my savings and I pay off my debt.

After that, what’s left is what I can start to allocate to other things. Because I'm not saying that you have to cut every single thing out. I have what I call a “Whatever You Want Fund" [that I treat myself with], it doesn't even have to be much. To be honest, I give myself like $100 [for things]. And everyone has different things, right? I noticed that you're on a little whiskey journey, I think it was?

So, with your “Whatever You Want Fund,” if you want to buy a bottle that's really expensive and it's $99.99, that's it. That's what you want to do, right? 

But at least you're not depriving yourself. Because when you deprive yourself, you fall off — that's what was happening to me. I like to equate it to fitness [...] let me speak for myself. If I am super clean, I know that if I see a donut, I will be weak and then I'll eat four donuts.

So I like implementing [practices] where [I] can still enjoy [myself] on a budget. I don't want people to think that that's what financial well-being is, too. Nobody's saying, “I'm never spending another cent again!” That makes no sense. You need to treat yourself, accordingly.

So if you feel like you can't put a lot of money towards your debt, my best advice is always to make at least the minimum payment and make it on time. Because you don't want your credit score to be harmed because of something like that.

Mohammed: I really like this idea of having a “Treat Yourself Fund”. I [also] really appreciate that you talked about having debt relapse — which a lot of people do end up experiencing but don't really have a name to put to it. They know that it's happening, but they may not always understand why it's happening or what's causing it. So to have somebody explain that and walk through the details of it, was very valuable. Thank you so much for that. 

In terms of getting a better sense of [where your money is going and what to allocate it to], what have been some of the things that you've tried [...] to manage your debt or reduce your debt in some manner?

Zandile: That's a great question. Actually, my journey started with a huge mistake, which is another reason why I'm so passionate about financial wellness. What had happened was that I had a credit card and I had a personal loan and my interest rates were so high. So, when I was making payments, I felt like I was doing nothing because the interest charges were just so high.

When I added it up, it was something like 31% in interest. It was just so discouraging. I really was like, ‘I'm paying but nothing's happening.’ So, what I did [was] call the bank and I [said], “I need help. Like, this doesn't make any sense to me. I'm committed to paying my debt off, but it's really discouraging.” 

When I set up a meeting with the advisor, they actually said to me, “You can consolidate your debt.” Which, it's not an option for everybody, so you really have to do your research and make sure that it's something that will work for you.

And, from my understanding, they're being a lot more strict about [offering debt consolidation]. But this was about a year ago, so it did work out for me. My minimum payments ended up being a lot higher because I was paying off one loan — which I wasn't ready for — but in the long run, it [was] making me pay off the debt much faster. Because paying your minimum payments is super important. That affects your credit score. 

So if you feel like you can't put a lot of money towards your debt, my best advice is always to make at least the minimum payment and make it on time. Because you don't want your credit score to be harmed because of something like that. [Lately], I haven't been putting as much towards debt because I've been focused on savings, but in the past, any windfall that came through or if I got a bonus or if I got one more project on hand, I would put that towards debt. 

And I would save that before I saw the money. Make that commitment before you see the money. Obviously, if you have an emergency or you really wanted something you've worked hard for and you're going to put money towards that, another way to do it is a hybrid approach. That means [saying to yourself], “I have this amount coming in. I wasn't expecting it. I'm going to put 50% towards debt, 30% towards savings, and the rest I can do whatever I want with.” And that covers everything if you can't put it all towards the debt. 

And again, with your interest rates, don't be afraid to call your lenders and have conversations with them. [Ask], “What can you do to help me? Because I'm committed to paying the debt off, but I want it to be faster.” [...] Some people don't know that, but you actually can negotiate. If you have a travel rewards card — nobody's [travelling] right now, sorry. So maybe call the bank and say, “Can we change this to a low-interest rate card with no fee so that I can pay off my debt? That's my goal right now.” Because I think, for a lot of people, some of their goals have shifted during this time.

Mohammed: I really appreciate you talking about consolidating your debt because, to your point, a lot of people don't know that they can [do that]. I typically recommend people just go to Borrowell or Mogo or one of those sites where they can get their free credit score.

And, typically, if [their score is] 700-720 or higher, and they have reasonable income coming in, for a lot of them, they can go into their banks and try to get a better rate on their existing loan or line of credit. For those who aren't able to get a better rate from the banks, please, please don't stop there.

Instead, go to another bank and see if they might be interested in giving you a better deal. Because a lot of the time that does happen. Because the other bank sees you as a new customer that they can now acquire [and] if they can give you a better rate on your loan or your line of credit, then maybe you'll bring over your chequing account and your credit cards. So, don't just stop at your current bank — try and shop around as much as possible. Or, at least another bank or two, where feasible. 

One other question I did have was, you mentioned you consolidated your debt and now you have a [minimum] payment that is much higher than what you were paying before.

Was that because your terms of the loan were much shorter? [As in], they were three or five years and those were the only options that you could get? Or were you able to get a larger term, which could have helped to bring that payment amount lower? What was the thought process there?

Zandile: Exactly that. [...] The length of the term was shorter than I had anticipated. Which, at first, was super scary because I had projected years to pay off this loan. But, when I spoke to my financial advisor (which I just realized I didn't mention [before], my mistake) before I consolidated my debt, I actually only had a credit card.

And, when I went to the bank — which you have to be careful about. You have to do a little bit of research sometimes because when I went there, I was an international student, so I didn't have many options. I wasn't a permanent resident. So the advisor [told me], “Get a loan with a lower interest rate, pay off the credit card, and then you'll have a lower interest rate.” That was my only option. 

And what do you think happened? I wasn’t very smart at that time and I was not in the best place emotionally. So, I spent the money [and] squandered that loan, which meant I doubled my debt. [When it comes to] advisors (or any professionals), I prefer people who have a do-it-with-you approach rather than do-it-for-you. 

If you don't understand what's actually happening, you can end up in a lot of trouble. My advisor told me, “Look, it's going to be a little bit of a higher minimum payment, but you're going to pay it off by this time.” He [laid] it out for me. And I was like, “That makes a lot of sense.” I was able to actually make those payments. Maybe if I was scared that I wouldn't be able to, I would've said no, but because I knew I could do it, honestly, it cut my [debt-repayment timeline] by a whole year. So, it was for the best. But my advisor went through it with me and told me what was happening. In the past, I probably wouldn't have even asked those questions. It was more of a conversation than him telling me what to do.

When you're booking a hotel or when you're looking for things to do, you do this research. I think we need to apply that same energy when it comes to our finances.

Mohammed: You touched on something that a lot of people also don't know or think about. The financial advisor at the bank is an employee of the bank. So, when they're advising you or giving you recommendations, please know that a lot of those are based on their own goals that they have to reach as the employee of the bank.

Sometimes the alignment of what's best for you versus what's best for them may not be there. So, you have to be very critical of the advice that you're getting and the terms that you're getting and the products that are being offered to you. Which is why, again, I will recommend that you don't just go to one bank and try and get advice there. Go to a few different banks to see what sort of products [or] solutions are being recommended when it comes to paying off your debt faster.

Zandile: That's great advice and it's super-valuable to tell people to shop around and compare. There are now sites that do that. Before it would be sort of a manual thing, but [now] you can literally go online. As you said, Borrowell has that; [there are] sites like Lowest Rates; [there are] so many places where you can actually make those decisions. It makes it easier to compare financial products. 

[For example], when you're booking a hotel or when you're looking for things to do, you do this research. I think we need to apply that same energy when it comes to our finances. Something that I see a lot — and maybe I don't [think this because] I only got to Canada as an adult — but some people think, ‘My parents banked with this place so I will bank with them, [too].’ I get that customer loyalty [has] its benefits in Canada, but it's still good to visit these other websites. And there are so many challenger banks these days that are doing the work and trying to reduce fees. 

I remember [reading] that Canadians pay [an average of] $159 a year on banking fees [last year]. I just like to reduce my expenses so that I can do more of the things that I actually want to do with my money. So, when it comes to you scrutinizing, that [applies to] everything — expenses, people you're getting advice from, [etc]. Even in this age where there are so many different places you can get information from. It's no longer just going to the bank.

Even when it comes to financial influencers, as they like to call it these days, you also have to take what they're saying with a grain of salt. I'm sure I'm not everyone's cup of tea either because I am putting this [idea out there that] financial literacy is not everything. It's important, but financial wellness is also a super important piece.

I like to take advice from a lot of different people, see what everyone's saying, and do my own research. And then [I] go to the professionals. Because at the end of the day they know what they're doing. So that's my, my take on that. 

Mohammed: I really like that. I think what may be a good place to start, for many of those listening, is: if I’m a freelancer who has quite a bit of debt and I'm trying to figure out how I can manage [it] and build the practice of financial well-being for myself. What are some ways that I can think about getting started?

Zandile: [...] I think it really depends on your current situation. For me, it started with tracking my spending. If you don't know what's going in and what's coming out, it'll be really hard to get a grip [on] your finances. So I'd say start there if you haven't already, especially during a pandemic. You need to know what you're spending and what's going out.

I know my numbers really well. I know what my fixed expenses are. I know how much I spend roughly on groceries a month. Just give yourself [an] idea and [don’t] run away from those numbers. If you have debt, it's [about] knowing every debt. It's [about] knowing your credit score as well. People are afraid to do that. 

I was afraid to do that for a really long time. Because I [thought], ‘It's just bad. It's all bad.’ But, for one, sometimes it's really not as bad as you think it is. [For example], my collections didn't report to the Credit Bureau. So I thought, ‘Oh my gosh. I have a terrible credit score.’ But, when I went to check, it was fine because I used to answer their calls and I used to have a relationship with my collections agent. And that made things a lot better. 

[...] The old school image is, like, you have all these bills piling up and you don't open them. Now, most people don't get their bills in the mail. But they're not logging on to see these things. So, know your numbers, they're yours at the end of the day and you can't face what you don't know. 

I'd say the second step [is] knowing where everything is at. Knowing [how much you want to save]. Be very specific with your goals and don't be discouraged if you don't meet those goals. Again, we're in a pandemic; you might've lost some clients or you might have [gained] clients. [...] You don't want to always have a scarcity mindset where you're always thinking about what could go wrong.

Some people have more clients now than they've ever had. What are you going to do with all that extra money coming in? You want to be ready for that as well. Be mindful [about] not speaking so poorly about your finances. That's a mindset thing where you feel like, ‘I don't make enough to save.’ Statements like that really aren't helpful.

Try to implement speaking positively about your finances, even when you're not making as much as you did before. And reach out [to professionals]; call your lender; call your internet providers [and] your phone company. Canadians pay so much for phone bills [and we] don't even really think about it. [We’re] like, ‘It's my phone, but I'm going to pay it.’ Call them. Yes, it takes [a long time] and you'll be on hold, but say, “I've been a customer for X amount of years. What can you do for me?” And switch providers if need be. These little savings go a long way.

And compare your financial products. Don't [pay] extra fees, if you can [help it]. Your service is also helpful to freelancers, right? So know your options and [which] resources are available to you. That will be super helpful when you're just starting out.

There are also [those] that [will advise you to] pay off your high interest at first because that's where you're losing the most money. Personally, the way I would approach it and the way that I did approach my debt [was that] I paid off the most emotionally taxing debt first.

Mohammed: Thank you so much for that. I really appreciated that breakdown. I want to try something different and maybe do a little bit of an exercise to tackle some questions people might [have] in terms of debt and paying things off. I'll draw up a scenario and see what you think about it.

Let's say I have $5,000 on my credit card — credit card [interest rates] are 19.99% for most people. And I have $10,000 on my student loan, which is going to charge me 7%. I [also] have a line of credit, which I owe $15,000 on and that is around 6%. In your mind how would you tackle this debt that I have?

Zandile: Oh, I love this scenario because I'm going to say something a little bit crazy. Someone [else] would say to most people — at least [what I’ve experienced] in the personal finance advice community — “You can either do the debt snowball or the debt avalanche method.”

I'm not sure if you are familiar with any of those terms, but basically, one of them [means] you pay off your highest debt to your lowest debt first. Or, you pay off your lowest debt first because that will give you encouragement. [Once] you finish [paying off] one, you're like, ‘Yay! I can do this. On to the next one.’

There are also [those] that [will advise you to] pay off your high interest at first because that's where you're losing the most money. Personally, the way I would approach it and the way that I did approach my debt [was that] I paid off the most emotionally taxing debt first. The one that was keeping me up at night. 

And guess what? It had the lowest interest rate. That's why I say, [when it comes to] personal finance advice, you just have to be so careful. Because, like with financial wellbeing, if I had followed everyone's advice, I would have done the high-interest debt first and then [I] would have been miserable. I needed to get that [low interest] debt [paid off] so that I could move forward with my immigration application, basically — long story short.

So, it kept me up at night. I was like, ‘Oh my God. I'm going to get kicked out of Canada because of this stupid debt.’ [Do] you know what I mean? So I paid that off first and I'm fine. And yes, did it take me longer. Did I lose more money? Yes, technically. I haven't done the numbers, but because I was paying such a high-interest rate on my other debt, I definitely lost money. But I finished that debt and it really was the best thing I ever did.

In terms of approaching your situation, I would definitely look at student loans. [...] I don't have access to them, but from what I know, they're really low interest and there isn't that much pressure when it comes to your credit score and all of that.

Just make sure, whichever you choose or, you make your minimum payments on every other debt. Don't tackle all of them because you're never going to finish anything. Choose one that you're going to focus on. I would say, in this case, let's go with the high-interest rate one so we pay things off quicker. 

But don't forget to make your minimum payments on the other ones. That's super important. That's something that affects your credit score. And if you want to be in good standing with the credit bureaus — [but] you can't pay off your debt in full, which is the best situation — you need to make a minimum payment. So yeah, I can't remember which one you said had the high interest one, but that's the one I would start tackling first. And I would just make the minimum payments on the other debt.

Mohammed: I really appreciate that. You didn't go for the snowball or the avalanche — I don't know why they're all snow-related — but you approached it from [the angle of], ‘What is the one that's making me not feel too good?’

And I think a lot of times [...] the psychological relationship with our money can sometimes get lost in these discussions. I've personally definitely been guilty of that as well. So I really appreciate that you brought that [to the table].

In terms of looking at debt overall, I want to touch a little bit on credit scores: what has your experience been with the credit scores? And what do credit scores really even mean? What should freelancers be thinking about when their credit scores are fluctuating on a monthly basis?

Zandile: Another great question and one of my favourite topics, because again, I really go against the grain with this stuff. When it comes to credit scores, chasing a perfect credit score is a waste of time, money, and energy. That's what I want to tell people. There are three reasons for that. A credit score fluctuates; that's how it works.

When everything that's on your credit report is being reported, it can be at different times. So what you're thinking [is], ‘I've made my payment on time so my credit score is going to go up.’ [But] you don't know when the credit bureaus [are] going to post that payment so [your score] could actually go down. 

The other thing is, there are multiple credit scores. This came out a few years ago — there's actually a CBC marketplace investigation about this. The credit score that we see is not the one that your banks and lenders see. So, in terms of getting your score from free options, sometimes that score is actually a few weeks behind. That's a whole other story, but trust me, there are multiple scores. Which is why, when you go and get your mortgage or something, you have to do credit checks through your bank because the one you're seeing is not the one that they're going to use when they're [deciding whether or not to lend you money]. 

And [lastly], it's not a moral judgment. If you have a bad credit score, it doesn't mean that you're a bad person. That's why I say there's no need to be chasing a high credit score. I did an article about this. Credit health is having a credit report that lenders can look at and say, “You've been lent money before, [we] can lend money to you again.” 

It's basically [about] being able to be approved for the best rates and terms (like interest rates). Because when you have a good score and a healthy credit report, you're eligible for better interest rates because you're proven to be creditworthy, through their eyes. So, if you want to have [good] credit health, you have to implement managing your credit responsibly. 

But for me — and experts have said this — sometimes you'll have the highest credit score, but there'll be something on your credit score that will flag you and you might not be approved for whatever it is you're trying to go for. You have to be careful. You have to check your credit report [at least] once a year because they make a lot of mistakes.

Sometimes you have the wrong information on there that could be affecting your credit score. There are tons of articles on that, where someone forgot a payment of like one cent or something and didn't realize it. Then it affected them when they were going to actually use it; like trying to get a mortgage.

It's usually when you're trying to borrow a lot of money that you notice these things. You don't have to monitor your credit report every day; that's not helpful. But checking it at least once a year and making sure everything is accurate [is a good idea]. You can also call your lenders [and say], “It's been a couple of years. I've been making my payments on time. Can you remove this from my file?” Negotiating with them. 

If it's something that's really bringing your credit score down, there are websites now where they have coaches [who can] tell you what you need to do to improve your score. 

Mohammed: I appreciate all of the thought you've put into this and [how you’re not] approaching this in a very black and white way. Which [is how], a lot of the time, financial information can be shared. I understand why that can be, but I really do appreciate you bringing the aspect of overall financial wellbeing and bringing mental health [in] to it, too. 

As we wrap up, I'd love to know where people can find out more about you and your work online.

Zandile: Thanks again so much for inviting me here. [We] had a great conversation, lots of super important things [were covered]. If you want to follow along on my current debt payoff journey, I'm finally closer to the finish line. I'm @Zaknows on Twitter and Instagram. That would be the best place to reach me.

I am always on Twitter. I feel like I'm a full-time Tweeter. In terms of my most recent personal finance articles, you can find those at https://www.lowestrates.ca/writers/zandile-chiwanza. Please feel free to reach out. I love talking about personal finance and financial wellness and I'm always down to meet new people.

Mohammed: Yay! Amazing. Well, thank you so much Zandile for this opportunity. Again, I really, really appreciate you taking this time.

Zandile: Thanks so much again.